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Lance S. Bush's avatar

//There are some kinds of things that can be meaningfully described as good or bad, and some kinds of things that can’t be. A knife, for instance, can be a good knife or a bad knife, but (to use an example from Thomson herself) a puddle is just a puddle. The reason for this divergence is that a knife can be meaningfully described as defective or exemplary, while a puddle can’t be.//

I'm a normative antirealist. I don't grant any of this. Knives can be good or bad for various purposes, and so can puddles. I see literally no relevant difference at all.

// If someone told you they bought a knife that turned out to be defective, you’d immediately have a good guess at what went wrong with it, and if they told you the replacement was an exemplary one, you’d understand that too.//

Antirealists, including subjectivists, have no problem accounting for this. We have considerable knowledge (largely inductive) of what most people use knives for most of the time: for cutting things. And most people want knives that are good at cutting, durable, don't slip when you use them, and so on. So we can (and I think, do) presume to know what people's goals are when using knives. If one were part of a torturer's guild, and the best knives were jagged and rusty, one's default assumption might be, if a coworker said they just got a "good knife," that it's a really nasty, jagged, brittle thing. I don't think it's remotely plausible to think of knives being good or bad in some non-subjective way; I think it only makes sense to speak of knives being good-for-this or bad-according-to-that-standard, and so on.

//But if someone told you the puddle outside their house was either exemplary or defective, you’d have no idea what they were talking about. //

I don't have any prior familiarity with people using puddles. If I were a frog or a mosquito, and so were they, I might have a very good idea of what they mean. I think these examples do very little (if anything) to make a case for realist conceptions of value. Those who take antirealist views like mine don't struggle in the least to account for why speaking of good and bad knives makes sense but speaking of good and bad puddles doesn't: we tend to use knives but we don't tend to use puddles, so we're familiar with evaluations of the former but not the latter. This would change if we used puddles. If anything, I think these examples highlight the value-dependent, goal-directed, and, (to me), obviously subjective nature of all evaluation.

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//He grabs a cheap, flimsy hammer and takes a few swings at a board until the handle snaps and the nail goes in sideways. In this scenario, was the hammer a good hammer? Any remotely plausible theory of goodness should say obviously not.//

This remark seems to beg the question against the subjectivist. I don’t agree that any remotely plausible theory should say “obviously not.” If I am a subjectivist, I wouldn’t think this. I’d think it would be a good hammer relative to some standards and a bad hammer relative to others. Insofar as the criteria for a “remotely plausible theory” simply presupposes that such a theory must tell us whether a hammer is good or bad in some non-subjective sense, such a standard amounts to saying that any plausible theory of goodness will be non-subjective. That’s what you’re supposed to argue for! Not presume!

You also say:

//But the hammer was definitely useful for the shop teacher to demonstrate the dangers of low-quality tools, and crucially it was useful in that respect as a hammer.//

The hammer can be good or bad for some goal or with respect to some purpose. A cheap hammer prone to breaking is useful relative to the goal of demonstrating its flimsiness, and bad relative to the goal of effectively striking nails. A sensible subjectivist would simply observe this point. Yet you say:

//According to goodness subjectivism, then, we should say not only that the hammer he used was a good hammer, but also that, bizarrely, a bad hammer in this situation would be one that pounded the nails in perfectly (because a hammer like that would have ruined the demonstration). //

That doesn’t seem right. A subjectivist would simply say that the hammer in question was bad for pounding nails and good for demonstrating the danger of low-quality tools. There’s nothing mysterious or troubling at all about something being good for some things and bad for others. The only confusion or mistake that may emerge is if one attempts to force a non-subjectivst appraisal onto the hammer: is it a good hammer or a bad one? Well, for a subjectivist, the answer is “it depends”: any appraisal of goodness or badness would need to be made relative to some standard. It can be both good-for-x and bad-for-y at the same time, but it’s never both “good” and “not good” full stop, because nothing is good or not good full stop.

//It just means what the shop teacher needed, in that moment, was a bad hammer, which is something goodness subjectivism struggles to express. //

If I were a subjectivist, I simply wouldn’t grant this. There is no such thing as good or bad hammers, in some nonrelative sense, there are only hammers that are good or bad relative to some standard or other.

The same issue emerges when you talk of approval. You say, “Again, any plausible theory of goodness should say that yes, he was a very good thief; if he wasn’t, he wouldn’t have been able to successfully fleece me.”

This again looks to me to be begging the question, if by “good” you mean good in some non-subjective sense. The thief would be good relative to some standards and bad relative to others.

//Once again, goodness subjectivism is committed to the bizarre position that the thief who was capable of pulling off such a perfect heist was not only a bad thief, but also that a good thief here would be one who was bumbling, inept, and unsuccessful.//

There is nothing bizarre about the subjectivist’s position. The thief was good at thievery but bad in the sense that the subjectivist disapproves of their thievery.

//Goodness subjectivism runs into even more problems when we apply it to judgments that have nothing to do with us. Imagine coming across two oak trees, one with strong, healthy roots that reach down five feet and the other with withered roots that reach down one foot. Obviously, we should be able to say that the first tree has good roots and the other tree has bad roots.//

This again just seems to beg the question against subjectivists. I don’t grant that it’s obvious that we should be able to say that the first tree has good roots and the other tree has bad roots: what do you mean by “good,” and “bad”? If you mean them in a non-subjective sense, this looks like your objection to subjectivism largely turns on stating that it’s obviously wrong. I don’t find it obviously wrong. Once again, a subjectivist can provide a subjective appraisal of this scenario: a tree with strong, healthy roots is good relative to the standard of being a healthy, growing tree, and bad relative to being a withered, dying tree. The reverse holds true of the withered tree. Subjectivists have absolutely no problem with appraisals of this kind.

//But no one approves or disapproves of particular oak trees, and most people have no goals that are furthered or thwarted by oak tree roots. //

A subjectivist need not construe all evaluative claims exclusively in terms of the actual preferences, goals, or standards of themselves or other actual agents. They can always make hypothetical appraisals relative to goals or standards even if nobody has those goals or standards. This simply isn’t a problem for subjectivists. It might only appear to be a problem if one has an overly narrow and constrained form of subjectivism.

You provide this example:

//And even if they did, it shouldn’t matter; it makes perfect sense for someone who wants to dig up the first tree to say, “Damn, it’s a shame this tree has good roots.”//

A person who makes this claim can construe it exclusively in descriptive or relativized, indexed evaluative terms without any issue at all. Trees are living things, and we can talk about what is good or bad “for the tree.” Trees don’t have actual goals or desires, but since they are adapted via natural selection so as to act in a quasi-intentional way, i.e., they “try” to live, we come to recognize that there are trees that flourish relative to their “goal” of living and those that fail to do so. When we speak of good roots, we can simply speak of roots being good relative to the “goal” of a tree. We need not think that the roots are good in some non-relative sense.

You address this here:

//Should goodness subjectivism be taken, then, to say we’re ascribing goodness to the roots from the perspective of the tree? Are they good roots because they serve the tree’s “goal” of growing? But even this is vulnerable to counterexamples in the exact same way. If the groundwater four feet below the surface is seriously polluted, then the tree with strong, healthy roots might be poisoned and die while the tree with withered roots would survive. //

I don’t think this is successful, either. That a tree that does what normally benefits a tree might incidentally be harmed in some circumstances doesn’t mean that we can’t meaningfully speak in subjectivist/relativistic terms about a tree with strong, healthy roots being a “good tree.” It’s simply that being good in this respect usually works in a trees favor. It need not always do so. I don’t see a problem for subjectivism here, either.

I find myself making the same point in response to most of these points, so I’ll stop here. I do not think you’ve successfully demonstrated any problems with subjectivism. I’m a moral antirealist, and my own moral claims amount to something like a subjectivist account (though I’m not a “subjectivist” in the traditional sense). I don’t think you’ve shown that I can’t speak like a subjectivist, or that there’d be any problems (incoherence, etc.) when I do. I’m not quite sure if the description of subjectivism you provided is simply a weird form of subjectivism I wouldn’t accept and would find less defensible than other forms, or whether you are representing (what I consider) a defensible form of subjectivism, and think that it faces certain problems. If the latter, I simply don’t think it does face any clear problems, especially not ones that could be easily circumvented by relatively minor modifications to the subjectivist’s account.

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