Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Corsaren's avatar

We’ve gone back and forth already on this, so I’ll try to keep it brief here (edit: i failed), but while I do like this analysis, and I think naturalism does a much better job standing up to evolutionary debunking arguments, I do think you’re rather overselling what counts as a moral fact.

Sure, I can say that Bob is a cruel, selfish person, where cruel and selfish are defined based on objective features about what is socially beneficial, but I actually don’t think that is the same as saying that there are “objective moral facts”. It’s not just that there is an oughtness left to be explained, it’s that without an oughtness, these are not properly moral facts (imo).

To analogize it with health: we can explain why we have an aversion to eating rotten meat by virtue of its tendency to cause us harm via disease, but that pathogenic quality doesn’t actually give us reason to listen to that aversion and avoid eating rotten meat if we find ourselves in a situation where we know that the rotten meat is safe to eat (because of some sterilization process), or if we just don’t care about our health. Similarly, we can explain our aversion to theft by referencing facts about what sort of activities are socially dysgenic and thus harm our long-term survival and reproductive chances, but those facts don’t give us a reason to act morally in circumstances where we know our long-term survival and reproductive chances won’t be harmed (and may even be benefitted for us as individuals at the cost of the group), or if we just don’t care about our reproductive fitness. If i can get away with stealing or killing or whathaveyou, the second order “moral” facts that you describe are no more reason-giving than are the generally pathogenic qualities of rotten food after I have sterilized them.

The second orderness of moral facts, then, is not the problem. It’s the categorical nature of the supposed moral imperative (as opposed to the hypothetical nature of health-based imperatives and similar naturalistic moral facts, whereby we “ought” to only adhere to them if we do, in fact, want the thing that they have a tendency to produce and think that adhering to them here will actually produce said thing).

Charles E's avatar

Your last few articles have been very IBE focused, which I appreciate. Makes for interesting reads.

I only have a rough idea of what you're called second-order properties, but if my impression is right than I'm inclined to be constructivist about them--these categories are real and helpful, but in important ways *ours*.

There are ongoing debates about the species problem, etc. We investigate reality by building models, these models are idealized abstractions, and we decide what to include and exclude in them for our own purposes. For every useful model, there are 'equivalent descriptions' which could capture the same observations. One territory, many possible maps.

You said that moral properties cluster into irreducible goodness--it seems to me that if there are constituative properties to do the clustering, those properties are what goodness reduces to. I'm not sure in what sense they could also be irreducible.

Questions about normative "oomph" are the crux of things. I read that section a few times, and I'm still not super clear where you stand. Do natural properties have some kind of *authority* or *bindingness* over us? If not, we probably have a mostly verbal dispute. If so, that sounds pretty mysterious. Health facts don't have any such oomph to me, unless they speak to my goals and concerns.

71 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?